Jonathan Drake

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Posts by Jonathan Drake

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  34

  There is no right and wrong

  by campaign of hate in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  so i am a little tangled up in this train of thought, as it can go quite deep.. as a jw, albeit fully awake, we are taught that there is right and a wrong.

  smoking is wrong.

  going on the ministry is right.

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  Jonathan Drake

  War and conflicts are a means to a political end, nothing more.
  

  This is an outrageous statement to blanket all war with.

  War is absolutely not a means to a political end in all instances. To state this in such a way is borderline insulting to society. I would absolutely agree that there have been battles and perhaps wars that have been fought for political reasons but by no means have all wars been for this purpose.

  I use as just one example the civil war of the United States. This was fought over slavery and the entire point of the war was morality. This was not politically motivated all, as the ownership of slaves and the spread of the practice was a boon for white owners. Fighting it's spread and eventually abolishing it only resulted in the loss of money. This was not fought over political reasons, because a HUGE portion of the United States obviously opposed the repression of slavery. it was an issue of morality. It was about right and wrong.

  Further, It may be impossible for religion to go down without something akin to a civil war in this country. Should it come to that it would be an issue of morality. Christianity is why stem cell research is banned, Christianity is the reason why a 100% effective HPV vaccine is banned, Christianity is so deep in our government here that it has its hands on everything. Francis Collins I believe (if I remember right is or was the head of the WHO) has even taken a side opposing any future vaccine against aids based on religious beliefs.

  To say that war is strictly political is misguided and ignorant. It is a fact that there are societies on our planet that live in circumstances brought on by a dark ages worldview of their leaders or religious representatives and these people are willing to kill themselves to drag everyone else down to that same level.

  If you think it merely a political motivation that drives people to oppose, fight, and die fighting this darkness then I suggest you go live in it for a while and gain a little culture.

  war may SOMETIMES be politically motivated, but war ALL OF THE TIME has something to do with morality - whether on the positive or negative side of the spectrum. It is impossible to spread good morality without war against those who would die for the bad. Therefore, war against the bad morality of the world is not only moral, but completely founded on morality - because it's literally a battle between good and evil. No politics involved.
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  34

  There is no right and wrong

  by campaign of hate in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  so i am a little tangled up in this train of thought, as it can go quite deep.. as a jw, albeit fully awake, we are taught that there is right and a wrong.

  smoking is wrong.

  going on the ministry is right.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Jonathan Drake

  What you are addressing in your OP is our (that is, people raised as or majorly brought up in the JW faith) ethics and morality. I think possibly what you're realizing is that you now have to work to reprogram your concepts of these.

  We have been taught and brought up to believe them to be completely grounded in our faith and the bible. For example, the fruitages of the spirit (love, joy, peace, long suffering, kindness, goodness, faith, you remember) are called, "... of the spirit."

  JW doctrine this teaches that without the spirit these characteristics cannot be possessed adequately - and as a nonbeliever in JW dogma you certainly wouldn't have them.

  In short: our religion (and indeed most if not all) teaches there is no morality without religion and so coming out of it leads to this inevitable quandary of 'is there right and wrong?'

  I've just finished reading several books by Sam Harris and I highly suggest you read one in particular: The End of Faith. I also suggest reading Undeniable by Bill Nye. What you will see discussed in these books (I believe more so in Undeniable) is the subject of altruism and the development of our morality by evolution. Science has shown that ethics and morality developed this way and is absolutely not reliant upon faith to be had.

  Harris provides a very good example by a discussion about collateral damage that shows how morality can be measured. In the recent and current battles in certain middle eastern areas the United States may blow up a building targeting a very evil man or group of men. In doing so, it isn't unheard of for innocents to be killed (and he gives an example of this) possibly even children. The United States views that loss of life as a tragedy and regrets very much the loss of innocents. This is called collateral damage. By comparison, a Muslim may strap a bomb to himself and try to blow up an American official but in doing so kill a dozen children and several adults. Unlike the U.S. response to such unintended loss of life, this is celebrated and praised. Further, the man who blew himself up is celebrated joyfully by his neighbors at home and even his parents are happy.

  Thus is the difference between collateral damage and terrorism. It's the intent and he subsequent reaction that measure the morality. Attempting to kill an evil Muslim who is intent on slaughtering as many westerners as possible for no reason other than his faith is the moral and right thing to do to save lives, mourning the loss of innocent life in this effort is the moral and right thing to do because it's tragic. The exact opposite can be said of the other side.

  Ethics and morality are absolutely not monopolized by, and in fact do not even originate with, faith and religion. The belief that they are is the only reason why anyone would ever view 9/11 as right, in the case of your one examples. This is a fact of reality and one I suggest further reading on immediately.
  
  
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  12

  I found something useful the Witnesses do for society.

  by adjusted knowledge in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i'm currently working at a rehab facility.

  it also has assisted living, long term care, and hospice.

  the facility allows churches to sign up for planned activities.

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  Jonathan Drake

  I disagree with this being a good thing. They are using the infirm and the dying to their own selfish means of appearing to be "zealous for fine works." There is nothing good about it.
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  34

  What should I ask Richard Dawkins tonight?

  by the comet in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  my amazing wife surprised me and bought tickets for us to hear richard dawkins tonight!

  he is giving a lecture with someone and then they are having a q&a session.

  anyone have any suggestions for questions i could ask?

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  Jonathan Drake

  I second cappys post!

  Please take the opportunity to draw his attention to their use of his words.
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  62

  WT is shorting literature orders by congregation with a problem contributing enough for literature $3500 just for mags

  by oppostate in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  at our meeting last night there was a talk about having run out of magazines for the last three months.

  it's expected this will continue to happen.

  the "branch" has not sent the requested number of magazines.

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  Jonathan Drake

  I wouldn't get too excited with this, are you certain the branch is doing it and not the elders and literature servant?
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  21

  What would happen if you drop a fake check or bill in the donation box?

  by StarTrekAngel in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  what would happen if we started dropping fake check or bills inside the donation box of an assembly?

  i know, is a crime, but so is pushing someone to not accept blood and die.

  would it help skew the numbers enough if enough of us did it?.

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  Jonathan Drake

  I'm not sure if you guys may not be aware, but a fake check or a fake bill will be found and dealt with on the day of its donation at any assembly or convention.

  Each event has a specified location on premisis that is locked down and only very few allows inside. This room is where all of the money ends up and is counted by several people and added up. During this time they watch for fakes. (at least that's what I've been told, I've seen the places where they count because I escorted someone there as an attendant.)

  even if not found there, a bank would notice it and alert the corporation and it'd be dealt with.
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  73

  God's Spirit

  by Hold Me-Thrill Me in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  what is god's spirit?

  .

  i ask this of those who believe in god.

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  Jonathan Drake

  I believe the proof of evolution or creation is in the details.
  

  But it's not. Evolution is proven by facts regardless of details. I.e., they recently reverse engineered (not sure if correct term) a birds beak into a dinosaur snout. How would this be possible if birds hadn't evolved from dinosaurs?
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  73

  God's Spirit

  by Hold Me-Thrill Me in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  what is god's spirit?

  .

  i ask this of those who believe in god.

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  Jonathan Drake

  Have there been mutations which have moved a species forward in evolution? If so, can it be proved?
  

  Thats not really how evolution works. It's not that there was a mutation that moved anything forward. Evolution doesn't work like X-Men.

  The way it actually happens is the world is constantly changing. The climate or environment changes or there is a disaster that strikes. Within a species there are constant mutations, and when these disasters strike or the climate or environment changes somehow, certain of the species around have mutated traits that enable them to survive these things better than the rest. The rest die out because they can't keep up.

  The evidence for this is all around us. YOU are evidence.

  its not that mutation pushes anyone ahead, rather its that it allows them to stay.
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  73

  God's Spirit

  by Hold Me-Thrill Me in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  what is god's spirit?

  .

  i ask this of those who believe in god.

  1. 
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  Jonathan Drake

  My question is: Is it claimed that mutations in and of themselves play a beneficial part in evolution?
  

  I know this is directed at cofty, but this question makes no damn sense. Mutations in and of themselves? I don't understand what that means.

  read my post, it's a very simple concept. You're looking for specificicity that even if is provided you won't understand. But unlike religion you need not take it on faith. It's the beautiful thing about science, as Neil Tyson is known to say, it's true whether you believe it and understand or not. It's observable in nature, reliable predictions about our world can be made based on it and have been.
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  73

  God's Spirit

  by Hold Me-Thrill Me in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  what is god's spirit?

  .

  i ask this of those who believe in god.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
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  Jonathan Drake

  @ cap lol prolly. Let's nip that in the bud now:

  if Protestants came from Catholics why are there still Catholics?